#343 "Dark Socialism": Kohei Saito on surviving (and thriving) within the ruins of disaster capitalism

00:00:00: So the question is no longer how we can avoid verbalism.

00:00:09: Rather, verbalism has already become inevitable.

00:00:13: It's gonna be a future because we are overshooting it too late to save the planet as it is.

00:00:18: We will suffer from permanent scarcity and more geopolitical tensions And so on.

00:00:23: The question is How do you build socialism in verbalisms?

00:00:30: Why this important You know, so if socialism is no longer about emancipation maybe it's not worth aiming at.

00:00:37: I don't think so because capitalism in barbarism will be a real disaster.

00:00:42: It's gonna be.

00:00:43: you know climate fascism and techno-fascism which people powerful people will intensify the division of inequality they would monopolize all the remaining resources And so on.

00:00:56: So that bad In order to still protect future and democracy, dignity etc.

00:01:03: The left of the aggressive should also recognize this severe situation And then provide vision which I call dark socialism.

00:01:24: Yes yes hello guys welcome to the distance

00:01:26: podcast This

00:01:27: week.

00:01:27: my guest is Kohai Saito.

00:01:29: We are talking about his latest book Dark Socialism Published in Germany under the title Unended as Fortress Six years after his best-selling book Slowdown or Systeme Sturz, where the Marxist philosopher argued for a radically social and ecological transformation aka degrowth communism.

00:01:47: His latest work kind of shifts to focus more towards this world getting darker.

00:01:53: let's be honest climate breakdown inside economic collapse imperialists tensions and rising fascisms.

00:01:59: Ultimately asking The question how can the left think an act within a world that is gonna get worse not better?

00:02:06: Oh, how can socialists put forward a hopeful vision for dark times aka Dark Socialism?

00:02:12: So yeah.

00:02:12: Let's just jump right into the interview with Koai Saito-Koei.

00:02:15: Thank you so much for joining me here on The Distance Podcast!

00:02:18: Thank You!

00:02:19: Yeah thanks so much.

00:02:20: um Koei we want to talk about socialism and time self.

00:02:24: climate breakdown uh your most recent book Dark Social Ism Hoping A Ruined World kind of marks a break as well As an update.

00:02:32: I think too early.

00:02:33: our work in slowdown.

00:02:35: Jumping off point is kind of a blunt analysis, the defeat of climate justice movement and of the irreversible ecological breakdown we're going to see in future.

00:02:45: And this world getting darker becomes advantage for you thinking about socialist politics in the future aka dark socialism or socialism at dark times.

00:02:52: one could say so For starters Kouai maybe can kick things off by telling our listeners what's behind.

00:02:59: kinda idea your research project Mm-hmm.

00:03:05: So my first book to stem stools became very popular and it was first published in two thousand twenty In Japan, so its almost six years ago.

00:03:16: at that time we were suffering from the global pandemic.

00:03:20: That Was Very Bad.

00:03:22: but At The Same Time We Discussed a Lot About Care Essential Work And Necessity or Importance of Protecting ecological system.

00:03:36: And then in this moment I basically advocated guys, pandemic is not the last worst crisis it's rather beginning of more of a crisis and then climate change would be much bigger one.

00:03:55: so let's build new society.

00:03:57: capitalism as a system of infinite growth cannot prevent us or I can not prevent climate change.

00:04:05: so we need a radical transformation towards degrowth society.

00:04:12: So that was you know also very good moment with various kinds of movements like Fridays for Future but Black Lives Matter, and then UN Sustainable Development Goals.

00:04:26: And these are like a lot of discussion among movements left-wing progressives but also amongst capitalists elites and politicians on.

00:04:34: so today the situation is radically different.

00:04:39: in two thousand twenty to there was war in Ukraine after that there's genociding Gaza now another one going on.

00:04:50: People often talk about inflation, energy security and more geopolitical tension.

00:04:57: And then the world is divided.

00:05:00: society's divided under right-wing populism.

00:05:03: Then people care less about climate change but a problem even if you don't care much about climate changes anymore.

00:05:11: basically the climate change continues.

00:05:13: one of the turning point.

00:05:14: for me If you look at the average annual temperature, it's the highest warmest year and then goes beyond one point five degrees Celsius.

00:05:28: So this is a big change.

00:05:29: Paris Agreement basically aimed at containing rising of temperatures within one point by the end of century.

00:05:38: but we are kind of seventy-five years ahead.

00:05:42: And then it means that I don't think with today's situation, is not possible to achieve the next target at two point zero either.

00:05:51: So

00:05:51: by the end of the century It kind of likely under Trump and Putin and everything maybe like three point zero or even more is a possible.

00:06:00: so That's quite like the situation.

00:06:02: what we would call our scientists will say climate Breakdown or clima collapse something like that?

00:06:09: This was important irreversible.

00:06:12: If it's economic crisis or if its just some war, conflicts we can recover somehow.

00:06:20: We can build a new city and the economy but ecological system once destroyed is not going to come back.

00:06:28: so basically... It's kind of too late!

00:06:33: So what's the difference from six years ago?

00:06:35: Six years ago we still had last opportunity prevent this climate change collapse.

00:06:42: But after six years of wasting time, we can no longer avoid ecological climate breakdown.

00:06:49: So

00:06:50: what should we do?

00:06:51: What kind of politics should we still aim at when it's too

00:06:55: late?".

00:06:56: That is the main topic in my current book.

00:07:00: Thank you so much.

00:07:01: We want to obviously talk a bit about what socialism or socialist politics these times and darker getting times could look like.

00:07:10: You kind of outlined that in a book or discussed it.

00:07:13: It's more centered around, the idea of adaptation and survival within the ruins of capitalism.

00:07:20: The German subtitle for your book is Überleben in den Ruin des Kapitalismus Surviving Within the Ruins Of Capitalism at the End of Progress.

00:07:30: We want to talk about this in detail but first maybe follow up on your analysis of climate overshoot, ecological breakdown and what that means for the global economy because I think there is

00:07:44: still

00:07:45: so much ignorance or willful denialism.

00:07:48: Because it's kind of quite frightening to look at What could happen?

00:07:52: Or maybe inevitably we'll happen.

00:07:55: So the backdrop of your argument That we have to face a decision further down the line, whether climate fascism or socialism but liberalism is exhausted.

00:08:04: The backdrop of all this kind of this climate overshoot a world getting towards two point five or three degrees and kind of catastrophic effects on the global economy are even human life on this planet in human flourishing.

00:08:18: so we're gonna face degrowth by disaster and progressives have to really take that into account and think about what could progressive politics actually look like in a world where we have going to see more scarcity, permanent scarcity or shortages.

00:08:35: And regressive politics are gonna fester on this kind of environment.

00:08:42: Could you maybe paint for our listeners from your perspective?

00:08:46: Kind of clear picture.

00:08:48: What's the ecological implications going to be given?

00:08:51: The current emissions trajectory and the current failure of international climate action that we're seeing.

00:08:57: Yeah,

00:08:58: And what are it going to Be?

00:08:59: the implications for the economy and For a human life on this planet here?

00:09:05: so six years ago We often talked about things like green you deal or Green Deal or a green transformation.

00:09:13: the basic idea was you know climate change also gives a new opportunity for economic growth and creating more green jobs, producing more electric vehicles or renewable energies.

00:09:29: More innovation will not only sustain even increase the quality of our life but decarbonize the entire economy.

00:09:42: So meaning that it will create better, more sustainable economies.

00:09:46: so that's a kind of win-win scenario for us especially living in global north.

00:09:53: but after six years things have changed and now its too late meaning we'll suffer from damages climate breakdown.

00:10:06: So we will suffer more from natural disasters, heat waves in Europe about drought but also in Japan.

00:10:14: it's more of typhoon and more rains.

00:10:17: then there are more floods.

00:10:19: the heatwaves also decreases production rice wheat and other main food.

00:10:26: so agricultural productivity would go down by couple percent.

00:10:32: And then there will be also accelerating shortage of water and aggrable land, meaning that especially the poor people will have to leave their own home and they'll look for another job or other places as refuges.

00:10:50: so there would be millions under hundreds of millions of climate refuges in the next decades increase the geopolitical tension, accelerating the xenophobic right-wing populism supported by people who suffer from inflation due to their water and food shortages.

00:11:14: People suffer more from anxiety fear of future.

00:11:19: they suffer from economic insecurity but also suffering from existential insecurity.

00:11:29: That kind of sense of fear and anxiety can be utilized by more authoritarian, populist leaders undermining our democratic system.

00:11:43: And also these natural disasters and climate change will simply cost economic costs.

00:11:49: so the pace of economic growth will go down.

00:11:53: So we have many, many problems.

00:11:56: The crisis of ecology, the crisis over capitalism... ...the crisis with democracy all combined.

00:12:02: and it's not going to be just a few years but more permanent because climate change is as I said irreversible.

00:12:12: It will get worse.

00:12:15: From my perspective philosophy this brings about very radical transformation in basic thinking Because we have this modern idea, especially in the Western society.

00:12:27: We have these modern ideas of progress.

00:12:30: The future will be more freedom More progress More democracy Thanks to deepening our understanding of world thanks to science is more innovation more technology more economic growth.

00:12:47: So somehow the word would become always better.

00:12:52: We might suffer but our children will live better.

00:12:56: More diversity, more cosmopolitan blah-blah-bluh.

00:13:01: But I think this is going to be radically different in the coming decades because future would be worse Hotter climate less productivity Less economic growth, more conflicts, less options.

00:13:17: So you know...more authoritarian leaders.

00:13:21: people will only imagine the future would be worse.

00:13:27: So that's going to be like a very different kind of world.

00:13:30: if we could aim always at some kind of liberation emancipation based on this kind of progress in modern enlightenment, our future focus more as you said about survival or adaptation worsening of the situation.

00:13:52: So, that question is what kind of politics it's still possible?

00:13:55: Can we only imagine some kind of fascist fascization or politics because people are only concerned about their own egoistic survival?

00:14:06: Or Is It Still Possible to Protect Somehow More Democratic Kind Of Future?

00:14:11: so That' The Key Question We Have To Ask Now.

00:14:16: Yeah, totally.

00:14:17: We're going to talk about the implications of your philosophical perspective on left-wing politics today but just a brief footnote on the fascist tendencies that escalating climate crisis is going to exacerbate.

00:14:32: so we are seeing right now already authoritarian and fascist tendancies worldwide And you claim in your book or you cry out, kind of the future is fascist.

00:14:42: So and that we have to brace ourselves for even more regression within this climate overshoot and climate breakdown.

00:14:50: what I would be interested In because you bring together The analysis off Climate fascism That the climate crisis is used by right-wing authoritarian governments Of movements too.

00:15:03: go post democracy within their countries and shut off that country's from climate refugees, for example.

00:15:09: But you bring it together with an analysis of the latest stage of capitalism, techno-capitalism... ...and the techno oligarchy where we also see Naomi Klein describes as in her newest book The Idea Of An Antime Fascism And The Past Fascism was kind utopian idea that they had a utopian ID of the future, although dark from progressive perspective.

00:15:35: Of course.

00:15:36: but The fascist today like and the techno fashists like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk They have a view of the Future That is going to be Dark And They are only preparing for yeah keeping their profits or even bunker themselves in.

00:15:54: so maybe given analysis You view on the latest stage of capitalism, which you describe drawing on Marx as rentier capitalism.

00:16:07: So this later stage of techno-capitalism and how it converges maybe even now but also in some future point with a climate breakdown and climate fascism?

00:16:21: The important question that we are facing today is rather adaptation And some people already prepare for this new political project of adaptation instead of emancipation.

00:16:37: Then as you mentioned, I think these tech capitalists like Peter Thio and Elon Musk are preparing the capitalist adaptation to ecological breakdown.

00:16:50: in contrast to mainstream liberal politicians social democrats They are still stuck in this old, modern idea of progress.

00:17:02: I mean that is one reason why they're really losing support.

00:17:06: everywhere in the world.

00:17:09: In Germany and even in USA there's a liberal democrat but also mainstream republicans increasingly losing the popularity because they still stick to this old idea that somehow globalization, modernization economic freedom diversity these kind of things will save our civilization.

00:17:37: but it's not a case.

00:17:39: Elon Musk for example what does he say?

00:17:42: He is talking about going through Mars.

00:17:46: The question I want to go to the Mars.

00:17:51: You know, he lives very comfortably on this planet and what's the point of going through the Mars?

00:17:56: Maybe he wants to make more money.

00:17:59: Yes He is doing that Very successfully Look at space X And so on.

00:18:05: but i think maybe uh...he Is very pessimistic about future..He not a techno-optimist believing That he can solve all the problems with development of technology.

00:18:19: Later, he thinks that it's no longer possible to continue living on this planet as is and This why He needs some kind of technology That allows Him To go to the Mars so that He can continue His way of life And protect his own wealth & power.

00:18:44: With this technology, he doesn't really have to go to the Mars in a warming planet.

00:18:49: Maybe he can go through some alps or Russia or Alaska or Greenland somewhere but still needs new technologies for providing water food and private security.

00:19:05: so that's also similar project Peter T is trying with his artificial island.

00:19:12: The point is anyway, they are recognizing that the current system no longer functions enough to protect their own power and wealth.

00:19:25: So they're preparing a new system like really technological digital systems with AI and surveillance powers and all of those robots minimize all the risks and control or manipulate population so that even if it's no longer possible to save everyone on this planet due to ecological breakdown, they can protect their own wealth.

00:19:56: This is actually a very complicated vision because only one hand looks optimistic about technological potentiality But at the same time, they are quite pessimistic about future.

00:20:09: So how do they justify this project?

00:20:13: That's what when... They talk about dark enlightenment.

00:20:17: so this is a new idea especially popular among tech elites today originally you know advocated by people like Nick Gland but also Curtis Yarvin.

00:20:29: and they say You know today's democracy.

00:20:33: Today is a bureaucratic system.

00:20:35: all lie Hypocrite and then there are not functioning because they're all monopolized by liberal professors journalists, and then all the kind of establishment.

00:20:48: So they argue for dismantling this kind of democratic system Abandoning transcending order regulations denying redistribution so that they can bring about new innovations, necessarily for the future disasters to come.

00:21:06: So they did justify the necessity of tech monarchy in order to transform our system as fast as possible not for the sake of emancipation I argue but rather for the safe adaptation through this coming crisis, crises of energy, security and ecological breakdowns.

00:21:27: so these new projects with the negation of our modern basic ideas like human rights, democracy and you know diversity and all that kind of things is increasingly becoming important for the capitalist survival.

00:21:44: And I think it's a very dangerous tendency That will lead to what i call techno fascism.

00:21:52: So climate fascism is emerging in many countries also supported by working-class people, but the tech people are leading techno fascism.

00:22:04: These two things will combine in the coming decades with what I call as that end time fascism following Naomi Klein.

00:22:14: But this...I don't think we'll really bring emancipation to the working class people anymore.

00:22:20: This kind of fascism and democratic authoritarian regime Will be simply in favor selected few people.

00:22:30: So that's the kind of very dangerous future scenario, but what important is these tech-people are now recognizing The end of progress and end on modernity.

00:22:43: so That's the end they're really obsessed with.

00:22:48: What we need is an alternative vision to ending without Abandoning the project of democracy

00:22:57: alternative vision of an ending.

00:22:59: In your book, you describe it as dark socialism instead of dark enlightenment.

00:23:03: but we have to learn from the right this clear vision of the future and of course liberalism and liberal elites are stuck and exhausted with them.

00:23:23: But regarding the left koai, I mean this is also a critique of like The Socialist Left.

00:23:31: so i wonder where you see the left in this current situation analysis-wise and strategically do You'll See that the left Is up to the Current moment or Up To the current Situation?

00:23:45: Or Do you See there's A lack Of Acknowledgement on the part of the Left Regarding kind of the darker future, the inevitability of climate collapse and future scarcities.

00:23:54: Because when you look at the left right now I think there's also still strongly shaped by this idea of modern progress And The Future is going to be better!

00:24:05: We can STILL build a better future.

00:24:09: Look for example Right Now it caught some headlines this Global Justice Fund by Piketty and people of the global justice project.

00:24:18: And yeah, off course it is still possible or in a theoretical scenario to raise the standard for living for ninety percent of the people where we're reducing working hours and consumption to be like in planetary constraints... ...and do that all by taxing the Uber Rich and build the Global Justice fund to redistribute money and resources.

00:24:39: But is that like the likely scenario we're going to see or how the majorities are in different countries?

00:24:46: So when you look at the left right now, still these visions of a bigger stake for the surplus and working people's abundance.

00:24:56: And there isn't much talk about climate collapse and scarcity.

00:25:00: We might be talking about narrative problems thereafter but just analysis-wise what does it mean for the climate justice movement and socialists left to really factor in reality of a darker future, planetary overshoot anti-growth by disasters.

00:25:22: So six years ago I also used similar narrative as Piketty that you mentioned.

00:25:33: right now We do have actually enough, but capitalism creates artificial scarcity.

00:25:42: So let's redistribute more we share more Let's create communal abundance and then things will all improve for everyone And so on.

00:25:55: That was basically the idea that okay climate crisis pandemic All those things are very bad just a big crisis.

00:26:03: However This crisis also reveals the fundamental problem of our capitalist society.

00:26:11: So let's utilize this as an opportunity to build a better future, so this is very traditional way thinking.

00:26:20: you know and order vendor climate change or system change.

00:26:28: So these are like all the attempts that basically try to utilize crisis as a lever, To bring some better society.

00:26:38: And this actually follows from very old socialist slogan of socialism or barbarism.

00:26:48: so thats you know traditional thinking I was still following in my previous book to stem stools.

00:26:55: i said also digroth communism or barbarism, basically.

00:27:03: But today after overshooting the planetary boundaries I think that we have to reformulate fundamental framework so thats a very big change also for me.

00:27:17: i was thinking about emancipation through socialist revolution But today we rather have to think about socialist adaptation, socialist survival in the ruins of capitalism.

00:27:32: So the question is no longer how can avoid barbarism?

00:27:37: Rather, barbarism has already become inevitable.

00:27:41: it's gonna be future because we are overshooting It too late.

00:27:45: save planet as it is We will suffer from permanent scarcity and more geopolitical tensions.

00:27:51: The question is how we build socialism in verbalism.

00:27:57: So it's no longer either or and whether order, but do you have to create a kind of new socialist society?

00:28:07: In the middle of the crisis?

00:28:10: why isn't this important?

00:28:11: You know so if socialism is no longer about emancipation maybe It's not worth aiming at?

00:28:17: I don't think so because capitalism in verbal will be a real disaster.

00:28:22: It's going to be, you know climate fascism and techno-fascism.

00:28:26: they rich people powerful people will intensify the division of inequality They would monopolize all that remaining resources And so on.

00:28:37: So that bad in order to still protect The future and democracy and dignity.

00:28:44: and so I do think That socialism is necessary.

00:28:48: but we...the left of progressives have to sort of give up the utopian vision or post-capitalist society.

00:28:59: Rather, we have to focus on a new survival strategy and I think this is something that i learned from movements like extinction rebellion.

00:29:09: they are basically talking about rather accepting darker problems.

00:29:15: then how do you act?

00:29:17: We can no longer continue the old way of movement.

00:29:23: And that question is really from a philosophical perspective, what kind of future can we still describe?

00:29:31: That's very important question.

00:29:32: but not many people have taken this task up because I think if you talk about these kinds things it will inevitably be unpopular.

00:29:44: you know, I say dark socialism.

00:29:46: and then many people said that's bad marketing strategy because no one think it is kind of attractive.

00:29:53: Dark socialism.

00:29:55: but i think its kinda highlights Because dark enlightenment became popular.

00:30:01: It really tells what gonna come in the future What we have to do based on a severe situation.

00:30:10: So I think the left progressive should also recognize this severe situation and then provide vision which i call dark socialism.

00:30:21: Yeah, I mean that whole idea of emancipation and liberation is built on economic surplus within The Left.

00:30:27: And if there's permanent scarcity in the future That severely changes to playing field.

00:30:32: so as you say we have To Think or put in focus like survival adaptation build a better barbarism, more equitable within the surplus that is there.

00:30:46: But I wonder if they're still room in your future of dark socialism for emancipatory struggles or for liberation sort.

00:30:57: Of course in the world of abundance, luxury communism is much more favorable.

00:31:05: But yeah permanent shortages, permanent scarcity that's going to come with climate overshoot.

00:31:11: it's not possible.

00:31:12: so this kind limits what left can achieve and future but still within the degrowth thats gonna hit us we can install democracy less work Socialization.

00:31:26: and I mean your book doesn't let go as some in the climate movement right now kind of do when they only focus on left-wing prepping.

00:31:36: And call ups politics, but you don't let Go off.

00:31:40: socialization struggles end up planning The economy.

00:31:45: the opposite the future of shortages, or permanent scarcity even brings planning to a forefront again.

00:31:51: So I just wonder if there isn't room to combine the ideas of adaptation survivalism in The Darker Future with emancipation and liberation?

00:32:03: And also do that narratively wise.

00:32:04: we can talk about narrative and dark socialism is cutting too win over hearts and minds right now especially in But yeah, when it comes to analysis and have that at the ground for strategies and narrative is there a way to combine these?

00:32:24: And don't you do that in your book.

00:32:26: So some people say that The Dark Socialism is too pessimistic because It's only about adaptation and then survival.

00:32:36: you believe so this not really.

00:32:38: You know About emancipation but I don't necessarily.

00:32:43: I think so.

00:32:44: We can still talk about emancipation in many senses.

00:32:52: First, but i have to clarify or emphasize that dark socialism is something similar to war situation War economy.

00:33:04: So this really the moment we had a big disaster and crisis kind of comparable to the enemy all of a sudden attacking us, and we have to protect.

00:33:18: It's not war economy to invade other people like now Trump is America but rather look at Iran.

00:33:24: they had to protect themselves in order to survive And then many things get interrupted.

00:33:30: They can no longer continue business as usual.

00:33:33: But then Can We Really Let The market, free-market govern that kind of a society once the war starts.

00:33:43: I don't think so!

00:33:44: Once the wars start... ...the market doesn't function well because markets would continue to produce what's only profitable for say rich people or big companies.

00:33:56: but what people do need during the moment of war over climate ecological breakdown it's radically different.

00:34:04: It's going to be usually something what we call essential goods and services like food, electricity of course water but also things like in the war.

00:34:17: we have to also create weapons and so on.

00:34:19: But at the moment climate change maybe build more hospitals and public transportation We really try to decarbonize protect people from typhoons and or hurricane, then also other things like desertification that we may have to plant more trees.

00:34:42: So these are really things not usually profitable.

00:34:46: so if you let the market govern our society thing would be too slow.

00:34:51: it rather increases economic inequality in a society where poor will be sacrificed.

00:35:00: for me Actually, the wartime economy kind of a very big crisis opens up.

00:35:10: The moment that new thinking about planning becomes possible and even necessary.

00:35:19: Imagine in the moment not only war but also financial crises or during the pandemic when it hits society or capitalism always government, the state has to intervene.

00:35:34: Here's an opportunity actually to utilize this power for better purposes in a financial crisis that governments only helped rich people and then poor people lost jobs under houses so on.

00:35:47: So thats not how we want do it.

00:35:50: next time when climate break down We can prepare from now.

00:35:56: bubble burst all of a sudden, pandemic hits all of the sudden.

00:35:59: but climate breakdown we know for sure that it's gonna come in the next decades.

00:36:04: then at least have some time to prepare for disasters.

00:36:11: So let's talk about what kind of planning will be introduced kind of authoritarian government plan everything for the capitalists.

00:36:23: That's gonna be like this scenario as we continue to current situation, but we can utilize these moments to build a more democratic control over production circulation and reproduction in our economy.

00:36:40: so that my basic idea of democratic planning ecological breakdown.

00:36:46: We focus more on what we need for survival, not for the sake of more profitability and so on.

00:36:53: And that also creates a possibility.

00:36:56: It's not guaranteed but it is possible to imagine More equality among people like rationing during wartime.

00:37:07: Basically the poor people get some food and medical security improving their own life, especially in the UK during wartime.

00:37:15: So we can imagine something similar but also imagine some kind of gender equality or racial inequality and then even think about accepting some refugees that's built more just climate transformation so on.

00:37:37: In this moment of ecological breakdowns the new project of dismantling patriarchy, dismantling colonial system.

00:37:47: And these things could still count as important emancipation if we define emancipations as transcending the relations of oppression and suppression right?

00:38:01: So my project of adaptation socialist adaptation is not necessarily the negation of emancipational in some sense.

00:38:11: Since we recognize the inevitability of crossing the planetary boundaries, We can no longer continue business as usual in global north anymore and global south.

00:38:23: they will suffer more for sure.

00:38:25: But that also creates a new possibility to imagine different future because then recognized past modern progress history is not really the progress for many people.

00:38:39: There must be something wrong, that's why we now face this big ecological crisis.

00:38:44: so then that opens up a new possibility of recognizing or rethinking our new narrative and also actually compatible with the immense battery project in some sense, not the full emancipation I would say but yeah.

00:39:01: So that's something...I call it radical hope.

00:39:04: Radical hope?

00:39:05: In a sense radical because it is not naive.

00:39:09: hope for future to be always better.

00:39:12: But this is the hope you only recognize by accepting or recognizing the destiny of some kind of decline in the future That also opens up new future that might be better for many people.

00:39:31: When it comes to building survival socialism, dark socialism or socialism in the Anthropocene It's obvious that we need more ecological planning to prevent even more disastrous temperature heating but ameliorate the worst effects of the escalating climate crisis.

00:39:54: Yeah, to share the burden more equitable or shift the burden from the poorest in the world to the richest.

00:40:00: but when it comes to reigning in the market we have to face all these false notions When It Comes To Planning.

00:40:09: and there's still the prevalent ideology Of The Supremacy Of The Market.

00:40:14: And You Spend Actually Several Chapters In Your Book On Dark Socialism arguing against Friedrich Hayek, like the godfather of neoliberalism.

00:40:25: And you portray him as someone who is responsible for us being under this dichotomy that there's only capitalist market and totalitarian state planning?

00:40:40: We had in the past our share.

00:40:44: that can only be the market.

00:40:45: And of course, the markets has its failures but it's still kind of best system and you regard as important.

00:40:52: we break this spell.

00:40:54: The sooner, the better of course.

00:40:55: But sure if we're gonna see within climate breakdown more market failures More people might come to the idea that something wrong with a market because it can't allocate resources in the right way.

00:41:08: Yeah

00:41:08: but yeah Why do we have like really face-off with Friedrich Hayek?

00:41:12: How did he understand market and planning?

00:41:14: where was he right?

00:41:16: Where were you wrong?

00:41:17: And how do you incorporate that into your argument for dark socialism like kind of really democratic planning.

00:41:25: There's also a shift, maybe we'll talk later about that in your work... A shift towards the acceptance that we need more state-level planning and more macro politics.

00:41:33: In earlier book you argued for a bottom up degrowth communism.

00:41:37: Now you bring together these post perspectives.

00:41:39: But first off all why do have to face Hayek in order to argue for democratic planning?

00:41:46: Yeah!

00:41:46: I spend several chapters to discuss and criticize Hayek, because he's very important.

00:41:52: He basically shapes our basic understanding of market and planning.

00:41:58: So we think that the market is associated with democracy.

00:42:04: Capitalism often is associated to democracy.

00:42:07: Socialist planning is a negation for democracy.

00:42:12: It's more like totalitarian regime And loss of freedom.

00:42:18: This idea, this binary free market versus authoritarian planning comes from Hayek.

00:42:25: A hundred years ago, when there was this socialist calculation debate in Austria basically Hayek criticized a collectivist-socialist plan which will inevitably leads to totalitarian regime.

00:42:41: Why?

00:42:42: Basically he said first of all socialists' calculations is simply complicated in our economic system, we have to deal with so many things and then there are so many unexpected situations.

00:42:55: And you know this collectivist planning cannot deal with this kind of complexity and then kind of an unexpected situation and so on.

00:43:06: The problem is what do the government does?

00:43:09: These bureaucrats will basically try to impose their own calculation and they have to order each factory to follow their plans.

00:43:21: And then, you kind of supervise everything if all the factories are doing things correctly but of course, actually don't want to get punishments.

00:43:34: so always set goals lower.

00:43:38: that will never really miss meeting targets.

00:43:44: Historically, Hayek's critique was correct because Soviet socialist planning basically failed and then their very Stalinist socialism was quite total Italian.

00:43:57: But is it true that we only have either free market or this kind of total Italian undemocratic planning?

00:44:08: It's false for two reasons.

00:44:10: One, if you look at history there are more decentralized kind of democratic planning in socialism.

00:44:19: one famous example is a chili.

00:44:21: in the ninety seventies they basically had become all Democratic cyber Planning which was but destroyed by CIA supported coup d'etat.

00:44:35: But anyway, there's another more important example is the capitalist digital planning today.

00:44:45: So if you look at companies like Amazon or any other tech companies for big companies they actually manipulate our orders because they gather so much data.

00:45:03: They already know what people would order, or they can even as I said manipulate us to all the certain things and based on that you can calculate, anticipate basic orders then kind of program all this system production circulation logistics in a very efficient way.

00:45:28: Capitalist planning does already exist on a scale that is actually even bigger than Soviet economy.

00:45:37: Walmart, Seven Eleven, Amazon and all those companies are basically doing their own kind of planning And then they're also very complicated stuff.

00:45:48: But the problem is this planning Is planned for bringing profit to these tech companies, right?

00:45:59: So this is not democratic at all.

00:46:00: This is the private planning for the sake of profitability.

00:46:07: It's very dangerous in a sense that they are increasingly becoming more powerful thanks to AI and monitors and algorithm and all those technologies.

00:46:17: but there isn't least possibility to democratize calculation power through socialization.

00:46:28: Let's imagine some kind of we socialize amazon and then they will have certain kinds of uh, calculation capacity based on people's control and participation.

00:46:42: so that kind of digital socialism is becoming theoretically possible.

00:46:49: So my point Not immediately, maybe.

00:46:52: But at least theoretically we should go for that kind of direction and then let's discuss more about the new socialist calculation debate based on these technologies.

00:47:08: otherwise if We simply reject and criticize what Elon Musk is doing today The left will lose the battle.

00:47:16: who's gonna control data centers?

00:47:18: Who's going to control AI?

00:47:20: We have so much actually the possibility.

00:47:23: I'm not fully supporting this kind of eco-modernist vision, simply introducing these powers because this data center and everything also use so much energy on water.

00:47:35: So that's very dangerous in a moment of ecological breakdown.

00:47:39: But at the same time without technology it is impossible to really establish participatory decentralized planning today.

00:47:50: So I think in order to kind of give a better direction, to utilize this kind of new potentiality for the people...I think that socialist intervention is quite important more than ever today.

00:48:06: Yeah sure!

00:48:06: There's a lot of potentiality from Socialist Project and New Technologies if they are expropriated or socialized.

00:48:16: But still, there's limits to technology.

00:48:19: Let's briefly talk about your idea of democratic planning because there is a plenitude of democratic-planning models and I already hinted towards that.

00:48:30: you kind of bit shifted with the new book compared to slowdown when it comes to the role of democratic centralism.

00:48:38: compare to decentralism like your first book Slowdown.

00:48:41: this was huge argument for A degrowth communism, you called it compared to climate Maoism or eco-dictatorship.

00:48:49: Yeah?

00:48:50: One might see a bit in China for example and You still give like.

00:48:57: I feel at least maybe you can correct me if i'm wrong...I feel that you give primacy to Decentralism into bottom up processes ...you kind of hint towards the Paris Commune as the model that socialized the state And it's obvious that a capitalist state won't do what is necessary and the state has to be democratized, bottom up.

00:49:19: To come towards any kind of socialism.

00:49:22: but I felt like or in your book you argued that bottom-up transformation or bottom-ups processes are not enough especially with regard to setting ecological boundaries deal with the effects of permanent scarcity or shortages.

00:49:43: So maybe you can explain a bit what prompted the adjustment in your argument and how do you think the relationship, um...of these two, yeah?

00:49:52: Decentralism & Centralism?

00:49:54: Yeah!

00:49:54: It's very important because one- there are two reasons.

00:49:58: One is basically, yes, in De Stemstuhl I discussed importance on more decentralized parties partly commons, right?

00:50:09: So that's why I use the term communism instead of socialism.

00:50:14: But there are many questions and criticism that my idea of commons is not enough to fight against global capitalist system as well as against a global or planetary ecological breakdown.

00:50:30: And since this situation got worse... ...and then also war so on This kind of degrowth communism alone is no longer enough for survival, especially during the moment of pandemic.

00:50:45: We needed to stay and so on.

00:50:47: So I learned from that experience too.

00:50:54: The second reason was a success in China.

00:50:59: So Chinese planning at least demonstrated can be quite efficient.

00:51:08: Look at Japan or look at Germany in the last couple years, it's really stagnating.

00:51:15: all that money government money is not utilized proper way.

00:51:20: infrastructure like public Deutsche Bahn or digital infrastructure.

00:51:24: these are under invested even though its very important while China they're quite you know planned well and then massively invest in all those heightened industries, renewable energies and then they are really developing the last twenty years or so.

00:51:45: You know we have to kind of acknowledge that power.

00:51:49: however it doesn't mean that we can simply follow what their doing because I think one problem which i call climate Maoism is basically its not democratic enough.

00:52:03: I think one of the way that we can imagine an alternative is kind of a combination, or degross communism and climate Maoism.

00:52:13: And then let's still talk about the importance of more decentralized and participatory planning from below so that we could deepen our democracy because capitalism today isn't actually democratic at all.

00:52:32: We have so much capacity for production.

00:52:35: Actually, we are creating this Anthropocene but... This power is also monopolized by the super rich people like Elon Musk and then it's not used properly.

00:52:48: So that why we suffer from hunger war and so many things.

00:52:52: So it's necessary to democratize this power of production, that is the meaning of socialism.

00:52:58: Capitalism is an undemocratic system of economy And socialism through socialization aims at democratizing our economic systems.

00:53:10: But we don't have let these governance to the hands bureaucrats or the members of communist party.

00:53:20: We can still imagine a more decentralized vision, but in some sense for certain things like carbon emission we can use satellites and then on national scale they create big plans based on that.

00:53:43: Some companies or some region can freely choose what kind of production they want to develop, and the kinds of investments that we make.

00:53:52: So I think one important thing is socialization and democratization of investment.

00:53:58: We should have more capacity for participating in this decision-making process.

00:54:06: Let us decide—or workers' decisions—what kind of car What kind of mobility we want to produce.

00:54:14: if you have more power?

00:54:16: We will probably vote for more public transportation and more, you know bicycle friendly cities And so on.

00:54:21: but today since the companies like Toyota basically monopolize that power Of making decisions about investments.

00:54:29: They continue to produce Hybrid cars and SUVs and big cars.

00:54:34: So this is actually a very irrational and even inefficient way of deciding.

00:54:41: planning can be both efficient and democratic, and decentralized.

00:54:48: And this is a new possibility that we can actually imagine.

00:54:51: there are many experiences in the model so we don't have time to discuss today.

00:54:55: but then also new technological capacity do it as well.

00:55:00: So we shouldn't be afraid of talking about planning again Because we are in the wartime, this time war against climate change.

00:55:09: But these kind of emergency gives us a possibility to start new socialist car registration debate today.

00:55:18: Yeah totally and I think that we have to be pragmatic about efficiency and democracy but find right balance.

00:55:25: One thing when it comes to transition and capitalist reaction, we're gonna see.

00:55:30: obviously you also talk about the necessity.

00:55:34: And that's a difficult discussion of course Of coercion or coercive elements?

00:55:39: You bring them together with a kind of philosophical analysis today provocative and slightly scary idea of dictatorship of ecological where upon ideas of Marx's idea of the dictatorship, of the proletariat.

00:55:55: It is a long argument in your book but maybe you can briefly touch on.

00:56:01: compared to the idea that there also need to be elements of coercion when it comes to rationing, for example.

00:56:10: The luxury consumption term as a transition from capitalism to socialism, ecological socialism and examples of the ecological dictatorship.

00:56:29: you hint towards two experiments in Latin America.

00:56:33: In Colombia under Gustavo Petro And then Ecuador Under Raphael Correa.

00:56:39: In Ecuador for example it became The first country To legally recognize the rights Of nature which was like A huge important step.

00:56:47: But in the end today, the process failed to end extractivism there and protect indigenous rights.

00:56:55: And it failed maybe due to internal errors but also because of international pressure.

00:57:02: that's there in a global capitalist economy with US pressure and trajectories like Ecuador which is dependent on being integrated by extractivist into the global market.

00:57:16: Maybe you can talk about your idea of the element of coercion, which we bring together in a philosophical debate on the dictatorship and also these concrete examples.

00:57:26: What do you think one could learn from them?

00:57:28: And also the limitations.

00:57:31: So ecological dictatorship... I defend this concept because the dictatorship is not very popular.

00:57:43: I mean,

00:57:43: as a philosopher you're not in the need of marketing strategy.

00:57:46: We

00:57:47: have to

00:57:48: simply know what dictatorship actually means.

00:57:52: and then dictatorship actually meant democracy for Karl Marx.

00:57:56: so that's the point.

00:57:57: basically Marx was saying we needed something like Stalin to overcome capitalism.

00:58:04: but basically the dictatorship is some kind required some kind of coercion.

00:58:11: The Paris commune for him was...

00:58:13: Exactly!

00:58:14: For me, I think Marx was imagining the Paris Commune as an example of dictatorship of proletariat art.

00:58:20: and then if you look at the Paris communes there is a moment of coercions right?

00:58:25: Because why?

00:58:26: because capitalists always resist against some kind socialization and transformation.

00:58:33: that's understandable.

00:58:34: so Only after going through that kind of process, there will be true harmonious democracy.

00:58:42: So from the perspective with a working class at the moment, the dictatorship proletariat art is they would be more participation There'll we'd been more democracy?

00:58:51: They wouldn't be more equality.

00:58:53: so it's kinda better.

00:58:54: but still Marx recognizes this as a lot of tension and conflict.

00:58:59: That why he says dictatorship.

00:59:03: Imagine, what's the concrete example today?

00:59:05: I think in German context this Deutsche Bohnen on the core expropriation and Eignen.

00:59:13: This thing is a really good example because you know from the perspective of Deutsche Bohnen... ...this is just like simple coercion that they can never accept.

00:59:23: but from the prospective seasons of Berlin It's like, yeah it's good because the rent is becoming so much higher in a short time.

00:59:34: It's much higher than what they can pay and there are lots of gentrification and expropriation from... people, right?

00:59:45: So yeah.

00:59:45: Yeah totally and Right now we have actually the national government wanting to intervene and curb The right of the city-state of berlin To expropriate the real estateers.

00:59:53: And there's such a moment Of truth because the chancellor who comes Actually from an investment background Openly says that they want to protect the prospects of international investors There against the voting of the People of Berlin also Totally undemocratic and totally coercive in the service of capital.

01:00:08: actually.

01:00:09: so They're willing to bend the constitution together with the social democrats because expropriation is actually constitutional right in Germany.

01:00:16: Yeah, coercion and the service of capital they're trying.

01:00:19: so yeah it's going to be a legal battle.

01:00:20: So hopefully the socialization movement wins and socializes inquiries as fuck out of big real estate companies in Berlin?

01:00:28: It's an attempt to socializing.

01:00:31: housing Is actually a democratic project But you know quite problematic from The capitalist conception.

01:00:42: So coercion can be actually sometimes justified based on some kind of participation and more socialist perspective, but we shouldn't hide this tension.

01:00:58: Of course there is tension!

01:01:00: But that can actually be justified for the sake of building a better future.

01:01:07: The concrete example I gave in my book was also that Colombia.

01:01:11: Unfortunately, President Petro and his supporters lost in the current election.

01:01:17: There will be a right-wing president again but anyway what President Petros tried to do was stop the afflux of extraction of new fossil fuels.

01:01:30: basically so that's coerced from the perspective of fossil capital The people or from the future generation, from the global south.

01:01:43: That's a real democracy because they never had capacity to talk about how They will develop their own economy in terms of energy and so on.

01:01:53: But first time has this kind of democratic Capacity to collectively decide to stop the fossil capital right?

01:02:01: So that kinds things give us at least the possibility to imagine is possible, because we often assume in the global north that all people of the global south are poor.

01:02:15: So they must want to build more highways and then they won't live like Americans and extract more for three captains so on.

01:02:22: but the people in Colombia at least a half of the population in Columbia are radically different.

01:02:28: They want to protect their own way of life Of course.

01:02:33: But then they can still improve better working condition better quality of life without destroying the nature.

01:02:44: And that's something actually people, progressives in global north should support more because Ecuador or Colombia are always under big pressure from USA and so I think Europe and Japan but also progressive democratic socialists in United States Also support, but not only support.

01:03:09: But also start their own this kind of new radical attempt to really change the current system.

01:03:18: and I think yeah...but i think that German example with a Deutsche Bohne thing is one good example And we should come up more on it.

01:03:25: That's something we can still do aiming at emancipation in the moment of dark socialism.

01:03:34: Look at the ecological breakdown.

01:03:37: Yeah, I guess that the experiment in Ecuador for example also failed.

01:03:40: You mentioned global constraints and dependencies And they wanted to get reparations kind of For the Yazuni initiative right?

01:03:49: To protect Amazon rainforests.

01:03:51: They fail to gain support by international community Which brings us back into the internationalism Of climate justice movement.

01:03:59: Who knows what would have happened if it got the support.

01:04:03: Just briefly, I know the time is running up but your perspective on climate

01:04:07: collapse

01:04:08: and The darker future dark socialism that also brings like a range of strategic questions for socialists Of course But also for the climate justice movement.

01:04:17: And the climate Justice Movement That it's like reorienting itself.

01:04:20: in Germany For example we see kind at two ways of dealing with this collapse acceptance.

01:04:27: Yeah On one hand there are people who continue classic climate justice battles mixed with calls for socialization.

01:04:38: And on the other hand, we see activists kind of withdrawing from these fights to build what they call.

01:04:45: I briefly hinted towards a collapse movement where the focus lies more on adaptation survivalism.

01:04:54: So they frame this as left-wing prepping, for example.

01:04:57: So kind of building resilient networks of care and mutual aid to prepare for collapse dynamics.

01:05:04: And though I find this analysis quite interesting This strategic conclusion to only focus on survivalism It's really about like how do you build a communication, for example within societal collapse and how do I feed myself?

01:05:24: And stuff like that.

01:05:25: So this kind of falls short when it comes to socialization perspective which I regard still as super important.

01:05:33: so i wonder if you look at this development... If we talk about people or what they make up with these developments

01:05:45: I learned a lot from the collapse movement and literature while writing this book, but one thing that wanted to highlight in my new book is basically it's important to scale up the network of care, mutual aid or survival strategy.

01:06:11: because this climate collapse is something that we can not really adapt on the basis of communities.

01:06:22: I mean, otherwise it's going to be some kind of communism in desert right?

01:06:26: So there were kind of like Mad Max kind of society world and then we still have certain communities where people still somehow can't live and so.

01:06:34: but i think thats too dystopian.

01:06:39: a lot of capacity and possibility to choose what kind of society we still want to build.

01:06:49: And especially learning from the historical example in the moment of societal collapse is, you know that state under people's support plays actually quite essential.

01:07:06: And then collapse is not like one moment and everything just crashes, right?

01:07:09: The collapse is a long historical process that lasts at least couple decades in some time or like hundred years also.

01:07:19: So the point is how we manage this decline.

01:07:24: It's possible That This kind of decline can accelerate inequality and concentration of wealth In the hands of tech people.

01:07:35: But also it's possible we manage this decline to overcome inequality, focus more on care and then build international solidarity through decolonization.

01:07:49: You might think that is too optimistic while the current diagnosis is quite pessimistic but I think in a moment of war Or, you know what's important to recognize that anyway.

01:08:02: the current imperial mode of living is collapsing now.

01:08:07: The old narrative or progress is losing its credibility.

01:08:12: so this system crisis and it's a moment for more political contestation That will bring instability And we can have actually more opening space too Right, so now this is utilized by Dark Enlightenment because they actually recognize the end of progress.

01:08:36: What's counter-narrative?

01:08:38: Counterplanning must achieve with basically recognizing this destiny and then create a new adaptation strategy to manage decline better than the dark enlightenment.

01:08:52: Kawaii!

01:08:53: Been a pleasure talking to you.

01:08:54: thank you so much.

01:08:55: Yeah Thank You So Much.

01:09:16: Yes, I hope you enjoyed the episode with Kauai Saito.

01:09:20: At that time it was already at his first book which is in German China, the System of Sturz trying to get him.

01:09:25: It didn't work out back then!

01:09:26: That's why this time i'm very happy about how things worked out with his book.

01:09:29: At the end of the progress we survive into a ruin of capitalism and finally have them talk to each other.

01:09:37: for a great thinker if I haven't read the books yet, System Sturz or just at the end of Fortschritts aka Dark Socialism.

01:09:47: His latest work.

01:09:49: We have the recommendation from me that it's really worth a lot more if you want to understand the current times and also want to know how socialist strategies can look like in these times exactly.

01:09:59: Pull yourself together!

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